Author Topic: Back on topic. 1969 Trans Am racing  (Read 32164 times)

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Offline adtarr

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Re: Back on topic. 1969 Trans Am racing
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2010, 10:22:31 pm »
Took these off the T/A video.




Offline Danoh1

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Re: Back on topic. 1969 Trans Am racing
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2010, 10:25:33 pm »
Great work and thank you new guy.  I have not yet figured out how to capture still images off YouTube.

I sent John Martin an email, and have his phone number. I'll not bother him unless he responds to my email.  I would love to talk with him.

You have provided valuable information and helped solve a mystery several of us have been discussing in private for many years.


I would still like to try and count the Ford IR intakes.  Sounds like 50 if BM had 30.

I'll update the list later.  Maybe start a new thread.
1970 M code Boss T/A (ala Dano)  link to racecar
HHP

Offline Gus-SK-Boss

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Re: Back on topic. 1969 Trans Am racing
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2010, 12:04:32 am »
Danoh,

Welcome adtarr, great stuff.

Like I posted on my other post about my I.R. manifold, it is the 36th intake that was being used either on a race car or for development after a few or many revisions. As I recall the "SK" stuff was done in small runs like 15 pieces more or less. If it worked then it went to a "XE" part number and more were cast. I have found intakes with "SK" numbers cast into the intake, and another with "XE" numbers and they both looked the same. Also, I'm sure that there are a bunch that have not been machined. Here are some other I.R. intakes;
 

On this photo you can see the big opening on the intake in between the carbs. Oil filler?
 
On this photo they have tap the intake and used a brass plug, again it's in between the carbs. This tap & plug does appear in the "SK" papers.

How many I.R. Dominator carbs did each team get? not many.
If you look at Dave Friedman book, Trans-Am, The pony car wars 1966-1972. (I would have scanned the photo but, COPYRIGHT stopped  me.)
 
On page 139 there are two guys who are working on the motor in  PJ's car, and the carbs are missing. Outside of the car in the pits, there are 3 motors, two of them have intakes on them but no carbs. On the third motor it looks like they are taking the carbs off to put on another motor. Or they are putting them on. So 4 motors and only one set of Dominator carbs. It make you wonder how many they did make and how many people got them.
Gus


Offline gt350hr

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Re: Back on topic. 1969 Trans Am racing
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2010, 08:20:06 am »
      Gus,
         The large fitting shown on the complete engine was due to the '69 T/A valve covers not having any holes in them. The fitting was hooked up to the breather system and would also be the oil fill. The engine pictured has '70 production covers that the teams never ran. Shelby did add breathers to the front of their covers as the Ford designed system was not adequate volume wise. Bud may have done this also. The small tapped hole was for the "quick fill" fitting so that pressurized oil could be added on a pit stop remotely.
    Randy
'66 GT350H (6S477)1of 18 white w/blue side stripes - drag raced mostly w / Boss 302 power for 35+ years
68.5 Cobra Jet fb  white w/blue c stripe 4spd
sorry never owned a Boss car just engines
cover Car Craft July '77 with my Boss powered GT350
cover/article Mustang Illustrated Fall 1987 w/all aluminum SK 351 Cleveland powered Mustang II
cover /article Modified Mustangs Feb 2011
cover Mustang Monthly  June 2014

Offline crossboss

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Re: Back on topic. 1969 Trans Am racing
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2010, 06:32:59 pm »
I used to own IR #11 for 23 years, it now belongs to a member on here....
--Scott.
<My old heap Boss 302…aka S-B Racing!

Current lifelong project:
1969 Mustang Fastback/FOX chassis, 5 speed, 4 wheel discs, with a modern Can-Am 494 (Boss 429), Kaase headed, intake mounted with a 1425 cfm 'B' Autolite Inline carb, ala Trans-Am style…Whew!

Offline zombie289

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Re: Back on topic. 1969 Trans Am racing
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2010, 09:26:15 pm »

Alan Moffat - 1 on 9F02M148624.  Not sure it ran with one, but I'm thinking it left KK with one.  it might be the basis for his weber setup.

Who can and or correct info on this first accounting?

I believe Moffats car was first raced with a 68 Tunnel Port engine, as it was shipped out from the USA virtually straight out of the Kar Kraft doors. He then ran the car with Webers on the Boss 302 engine as the Aussie rules allowed it.

Offline Danoh1

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Re: Back on topic. 1969 Trans Am racing
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2010, 10:26:36 pm »
Sorry.  I disagree.  I think the car was originally shipped with a Boss engine.  The Boss program was in full swing.  The tunnel port program was already dead.  Some sources say it had a tunnel port.  And maybe so.  I don't have my Moffat ref stuff handy.

Bud Moore built Moffat's car.  Not KK.

I speculate that Moffat got at least one IR intake.
1970 M code Boss T/A (ala Dano)  link to racecar
HHP

Offline zombie289

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Re: Back on topic. 1969 Trans Am racing
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2010, 09:15:53 pm »
YEah sorry got Bud Moore mixed up with KK....
Moffat told australian muscle car magazine a few years ago that the car first raced in australia with a tunnel port engine...

Offline Danoh1

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Re: Back on topic. 1969 Trans Am racing
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2010, 11:16:09 pm »
then I believe it.  I have that mag at my "other house".  Don't have all my goodies here.  Yet.

Tunnel port it is.  Or was.
1970 M code Boss T/A (ala Dano)  link to racecar
HHP

Offline Swede70

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Re: Back on topic. 1969 Trans Am racing
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2010, 10:00:33 am »
Greetings,

Some more stuff to come.  Very good article in the 1972 Petersen Publishing special softcover publication Sports Cars of the Word reviewing the atmosphere, tensions within the RKE/JRT camp, and other thoughts to share.  Not sure how to share article without consuming huge bandwidth.  Also have curiously inscribed and content-corrected Jim Jeffords-signed copy of the Unfair Advantage.  Anyhow, a few photographs of the '69 hood if nothing else: 





Always plotting the next scale model.  Love SCCA Trans Am - partial to none!

Mike K.
Vintage SCCA Trans Am enthusiast, 1:32/1:25/1:18 scale model builder invested in same topic, collector of all textual material relating to the series.  Academic librarian by training.

Offline Fatboy

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Re: Back on topic. 1969 Trans Am racing
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2010, 12:24:32 pm »
Guys, A couple late updates: Talked to Brooke & he said he thought toward the last half of the '69 season AMC showed up with the Dominators & what he thought was a tunnel ram intake. He said this is discernable in that '69 T/A film we now have some stills from. Who kissed who to get those carbs out of Ford will probably remain a mystery.

GT350HR, In the stills of the AMC, did you notice the brass sleeves in the venturi? I've never seen anything like that, have you?

Dual Dominator Intake Count: I think all the intakes were hand etched with a consecutive number between the two carb mounting surfaces. Like #15, for example. Every intake I have owned(around half a dozen) & seen(another half dozen or more) have always this consecutive number in place. Highest number I ever saw was mid forties. I speculate no more than fifty were made.
  Randy is right again. The plug mentioned was used for breathing the motor. It's size varied from team to team, it appears, and wasn't always brass.

Dominators Count: The previously mentioned Holley engineer I talked with years ago regarding the Dominators, mentioned production being, if I recall correctly, 100 total units. Remember, these were designed for NASCAR nearly two years earlier, not for T/A much later in '69. By the way, production was slow. He said Ford picked up a few at a time as they were finished. This might explain to developmental differences & evolution in the Dominators.
  I think Gus is right... Budly & Shelby had very few sets of the carbs, maybe only one set for each running car? Danny Araki(sp) told me they were in a constant battle with Ford to get the latest Boss stuff. Budly, the favorite, first showed up with the Dominator set up at a T/A race & Shelby had never seen it. I think Danny said they were running the inline dual four Shelby racing intake at that time with the smaller Holleys. GT350HR would know if this is so.
  Offset Distributors: Like the intakes, all I have seen & owned were consecutively numbered. Highest number I recall is #15 or #17. I've owned eight of them over the years. This lead me to believe only twenty units may have been produced, at the most twenty five. I remember finding it strange that there clearly were more intakes than distributors, making the extra intakes useless without the distributor.

  If any of you have a hand etchednumbered intake or offset above 50(intakes) or 20(offsets), I'd like to now & that would naturally speak of greater production numbers. Thanks, Fatboy

Offline C5HM

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Re: Back on topic. 1969 Trans Am racing
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2010, 06:00:07 pm »
Doug, Not sure when the NASCAR Dominator was designed, but if you imply that a Dominator was used in Grand National competition before February of 1969, you are wrong.  The "Ford 1040" made its NA$CAR competition debut at Daytona in February of 1969.

Offline Danoh1

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Re: Back on topic. 1969 Trans Am racing
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2010, 06:22:30 pm »
I have read somewhere the dominators were developed specifically for the IR intakes, as Webbers were not allowed. 
1970 M code Boss T/A (ala Dano)  link to racecar
HHP

Offline gt350hr

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Re: Back on topic. 1969 Trans Am racing
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2010, 11:52:10 pm »
      Fatboy,
          Your numbers are low for both manifolds and distributors and a little high for carbs. Donnie Araki told me 30 years ago the carb number was 84-88 carbs in total .
         Manifolds were numerous. Gus and I counted 17 BME engine numbers for the '69 season. Shelby had at least 12 as that's an engine # sent to Bud after Shelby lost his deal. Ford built around 60 engines in three series of builds (RX 413-1, -2, and -3). I have a valve cover from an engine that went to Shelby with RX 413-3-18 on it so you see my point.
 I seem to remember the Dyno Don intake having a $56 on it. The $56 would the the serial #56 or 56th example of the particular SK/XE number assigned to the part. Shelby did run the conventional 2x4 Holleys but they were down on HP and got the boot early on. My carbs came from Donnie Araki and he got them right from John Dunn of Shelby Racing Co. in '69. One of my sand cast dominators had "car 2" scratched on the float bowls. That carb looked like the two Gus has pictured above, including the extended air bleeds.
   My offset distributor has S391 stamped on it as I remember. The offset for the B429/351C is far more rare. I have only seen and owned 1. It now belongs to Craig Olsen. It is a totally different part than the 302 unit. Has a tach drive too.
       Randy
'66 GT350H (6S477)1of 18 white w/blue side stripes - drag raced mostly w / Boss 302 power for 35+ years
68.5 Cobra Jet fb  white w/blue c stripe 4spd
sorry never owned a Boss car just engines
cover Car Craft July '77 with my Boss powered GT350
cover/article Mustang Illustrated Fall 1987 w/all aluminum SK 351 Cleveland powered Mustang II
cover /article Modified Mustangs Feb 2011
cover Mustang Monthly  June 2014

Offline C5HM

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Re: Back on topic. 1969 Trans Am racing
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2010, 05:55:50 am »
      Fatboy,
          Your numbers are low for both manifolds and distributors and a little high for carbs. Donnie Araki told me 30 years ago the carb number was 84-88 carbs in total .
         Manifolds were numerous. Gus and I counted 17 BME engine numbers for the '69 season. Shelby had at least 12 as that's an engine # sent to Bud after Shelby lost his deal. Ford built around 60 engines in three series of builds (RX 413-1, -2, and -3). I have a valve cover from an engine that went to Shelby with RX 413-3-18 on it so you see my point.
 I seem to remember the Dyno Don intake having a $56 on it. The $56 would the the serial #56 or 56th example of the particular SK/XE number assigned to the part. Shelby did run the conventional 2x4 Holleys but they were down on HP and got the boot early on. My carbs came from Donnie Araki and he got them right from John Dunn of Shelby Racing Co. in '69. One of my sand cast dominators had "car 2" scratched on the float bowls. That carb looked like the two Gus has pictured above, including the extended air bleeds.
   My offset distributor has S391 stamped on it as I remember. The offset for the B429/351C is far more rare. I have only seen and owned 1. It now belongs to Craig Olsen. It is a totally different part than the 302 unit. Has a tach drive too.
       Randy

Smokey had several off sets of both types when I went throgh his shop in the late 80s (pre-auction #1). He also had a ton of B2 and B9 exotica including Gus' sliding runner/vacuum variable Boss 302 ram box. Neat stuff to look at for sure. Unfortunately an errant editor lost most of the negatives I took. Dang. Still have some shots though.  Getting to prowl around Smokey's attic was a rare treat.  It was pretty much still "1970" in there at the time. He had the only complete (pan to carbs) Tunnel Port 302 I had ever seen and the only complete iron head Boss 429 I have ever seen to this day. Incredible stuff.