Author Topic: Windage tray bolt tech  (Read 2998 times)

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Offline XEngr

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Windage tray bolt tech
« on: June 29, 2013, 11:15:20 am »
OK, I'm wondering why there are different heights of windage tray bolt heads (see attached picture), left to right:

Stock 5.0L main bolt with oil pickup stud - note stud is too large for Boss 302 windage tray hole, would require drilling oversize

Two versions of the tray bolt with slightly different heights.

On the right, taller version which is the one which I am familiar.

I think the stock 5.0L bolt could be used with some washers to space the tray farther from the crank.

Canton and ARP makes studs also but guessing is some mods would be required.

Comment or further info appreciated.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 11:25:08 am by XEngr »

Offline Clifford

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Re: Windage tray bolt tech
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2013, 12:09:52 pm »
Here's my educated guess on the different main bolts that you have. Fasteners like "most" bolts and screws are made by a process called cold-heading for the head of the fastener and roll-forming for the threads. Its a quick and less expensive alternative to turning and machining a fastener. Cold Heading basically starts with a thin piece of wire cut to size and the head of the fastener pounded/squeezed in a die into a larger diameter size into the shape that you want. In the cold heading process there are limits to how large a head you can bang out based on the type and dia. of the wire you start with. The heads on the original Boss 302 windage tray bolts are very large and are not that simple that just any bolt supplier can make. 1969 Boss 302s were engineered say in about 1967-1968? That was like about 45 years ago? A lot of things have changed in 45 years. I'm sure the bolt suppliers of these bolts to Ford has changed too. Also the tools to make cold headed fasteners wear out too and get replaced all the time. Even when the tools get replaced they can sometimes get little improvements put in them. Those improvements (or changes) may look very minor to you and I, but to the bolt maker they are huge improvements to help them make those parts.

Without knowing who made what bolt or when the bolt was manufactured it is hard to say what is what or why it was done a certain way. But like I said, the original Boss 302 windage tray bolts have a very large head that not just any bolt maker can make. Plus there's that secondary operation of tapping the female thread in the head of the bolt too. The Boss 302 windage tray bolt is a pretty unique piece and not every bolt maker is capable of making it. The differences for the bolts on the right can be explained as simply that they were made by different suppliers and their tools where slightly different. It was and still is common place for auto companies to switch suppliers or to sometime to be dual-sourced on some things. Also sometimes many suppliers look at the big picture and they are looking at high volume orders. Once a part/fastener goes into service applications and the volumes drop off a big supplier might outsource a part to a smaller bolt maker. So without know the background of the fasteners in question I can only make guesses at the differences about the ones on the right. The one on the left is a different story.

The bolt with thread stud sticking out the end of it is most likely all one piece. This bolt will function just like the two on the right, but I'm guessing it was made like this because it is less expensive to make than the two on the right. Tapping the hole down the center is a secondary off-line operation, where the one with the stud sticking out the end is all done during the cold heading and thread rolling operations. It will be harder to cold head and thread roll, but over all it will be less expensive because you eliminate the extra hole tapping operation. This one with stud sticking out is good to use in applications where you have a rear sump oil pan and rear pick-up tube as you can attach the oil pump pick-up tube to it.   

The bolt on the far left is someones attempt at a cheap Boss 302 windage tray bolt replacement. (probably because the bolt supplier can't make a proper Boss 302 replacement) All four bolts shown are doing the same thing, but they all have their differences in how they do it and how they were made. Out of all the four bolts shown I would trust the one on the far left the least.

In my opinion, If one was forced to use the bolt on the left because they didn't have the availability of the other three options I would look at a fifth option. ARP makes a long Main Bolt Stud Set for using a Boss Windage Tray on a small block ford engine block. I believe this set is cataloged under ARP 154-5602 and cost under $100. If you are going to shim to get your windage tray in the proper position I would seriously consider looking at this stud kit instead of bolt #1. Also main studs are better main bolts anyway. But that's a discussion for another thread.

Thanks for showing us these different main bolts in one picture. I believe one can still buy Boss 302 windage trays and their bolts as a package set. One might still be able to get some form of the windage tray bolts brand new too, but I'm not sure. A few years ago I was able to pick up a Boss 302 Windage Tray by itself and then I was able to find the old style tapped hole head bolts separate. I got them a lot cheaper that way.           
The Big Red Dog

Offline gt350hr

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Re: Windage tray bolt tech
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2013, 12:49:06 pm »
      It's pretty simple actually. The short ones are '69 spec bolts, the tall ones are '70 spec bolts and the studded one is for a 5.0 or other engine with a rear sump pan . These used long pickups and the pickup had a tab on it to keep vibration from braking it off. For '70 the bolts were lengthened to avoid clearance ( rods to tray) issues encountered on some '69s.
     Nothing to do with forming the heads,
         Randy
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 08:08:51 am by gt350hr »
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Offline RadBOSS

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Re: Windage tray bolt tech
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2013, 12:59:20 pm »
Might add the the rolled threads are better than turned ones from a fatigue resistance perspective.

I never realized the 70 bolt heads were different than the 69.  Nice factoid Randy.

When I got my ARP mains stud kit,   as Randy had told me the studs were too long and on the no.1 main brg cap,  the extra long stud clashed with the oil pump.  My guess is they engineered the kit for the 351 Windsor. My remedy was to complain direct to ARP, they responded with a FOC set of SB Chevy mains studs kit, which were shorter and correct length for the BOSS.  The only other downside to the ARP kit was the studs for the windadge tray used a larger thread than the windage tray was drilled for and I had to open those holes up,  and I had to shim the windage tray down so I had proper clearance with the rotating assembly.  Whether ARP reengineered the kit or not I do not know ... but a tip of what your should be looking for.


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Offline gt350hr

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Re: Windage tray bolt tech
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2013, 08:44:54 am »
      The factory bolts are very high quality pieces. In all the years I have been doing this I haven't had a single bolt failure. Aftermarket parts are fine but "I" only use them when there is a reason to, not for "insurance" like is so often mentioned. I DO NOT subscribe to " aftermarket parts are/must be better". In My Persional Experience, the only inferior fastner on a production Boss 302 is the connecting rod nut. I replace them every time with an aftermarket nut. Everything else ( fastner wise) is pretty good.
       Randy
'66 GT350H (6S477)1of 18 white w/blue side stripes - drag raced mostly w / Boss 302 power for 35+ years
68.5 Cobra Jet fb  white w/blue c stripe 4spd
sorry never owned a Boss car just engines
cover Car Craft July '77 with my Boss powered GT350
cover/article Mustang Illustrated Fall 1987 w/all aluminum SK 351 Cleveland powered Mustang II
cover /article Modified Mustangs Feb 2011
cover Mustang Monthly  June 2014

Online JohnSlack

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Re: Windage tray bolt tech
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2015, 03:30:30 pm »
This became relevant again recently.
John
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Online JohnSlack

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Re: Windage tray bolt tech
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2019, 03:45:07 pm »
      It's pretty simple actually. The short ones are '69 spec bolts, the tall ones are '70 spec bolts and the studded one is for a 5.0 or other engine with a rear sump pan . These used long pickups and the pickup had a tab on it to keep vibration from braking it off. For '70 the bolts were lengthened to avoid clearance ( rods to tray) issues encountered on some '69s.
     Nothing to do with forming the heads,
         Randy

Randy,
We just disassembled a brand new never molested December 9, 1969 assembly date engine. The interesting piece was the factory reworked windage tray that had spacers welded to the windage tray to increase the clearance for the windage tray with short headed main bolts. Some times what you see when you get a chance to take a look at an original never touched piece is cool.
John
Have you driven a Ford Lately?

https://youtu.be/C2fY6-Ggfoo


2010 Mustang GT Red Candy Metallic
1970 BOSS 302 Mustang Lime Green Metallic
1969 1/2  BOSS 302 Mustang Calypso Coral
1962 Porsche 356B-T6 Silver-Black interior (It's a Porsche that is what they should be.)

Offline pbf777

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Re: Windage tray bolt tech
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2019, 06:46:43 pm »
     
      The short ones are '69 spec bolts, the tall ones are '70 spec bolts and the studded one is for a 5.0 or other engine with a rear sump pan .
         Randy

     I agree with the above, but realize that the studded 7/16" units appeared earlier than the 5.0's ('79 +/-?) as I believe they would have first appeared in the late '60's & '70's for 302's in vans and trucks, those which were equipped with rear sump oil pans. Note that 1/2" versions are (perhaps were?) available for the 351W (two different lengths), FE & 429/460 engines (including boat applications w/ a windage tray, later sold thru Ford Motorsport) also.

     As I recall, the larger/taller head fastener identified as a 1970 Boss 302 application, was also developed as a recommended replacement for the 1969 Boss 302 shorter head units, as failures had been experienced of the hex head separating from the bolt shank due to the counter bore of the female provision reducing the available material at the cross section at the point of the transition, hence the taller head, so as to separate the O.D. reduction for the shank from the I.D. intrusion.

     And, I have witnessed this, and realized post such failure, that there ain't much remaining metal to hold the head on: so don't use the earlier "short" bolts, even if they are "concours"correct!        ;)

     Scott.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 09:00:22 am by pbf777 »

Offline Tim Barker

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Re: Windage tray bolt tech
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2019, 08:08:39 pm »
      It's pretty simple actually. The short ones are '69 spec bolts, the tall ones are '70 spec bolts and the studded one is for a 5.0 or other engine with a rear sump pan . These used long pickups and the pickup had a tab on it to keep vibration from braking it off. For '70 the bolts were lengthened to avoid clearance ( rods to tray) issues encountered on some '69s.
     Nothing to do with forming the heads,
         Randy

Randy,
We just disassembled a brand new never molested December 9, 1969 assembly date engine. The interesting piece was the factory reworked windage tray that had spacers welded to the windage tray to increase the clearance for the windage tray with short headed main bolts. Some times what you see when you get a chance to take a look at an original never touched piece is cool.
John

I had to weld spacers to mine to help clear the 3.25 crank.
1970 BOSS 302, Yellow on White, 0F02G150833

Offline brightgoldboss

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Re: Windage tray bolt tech
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2019, 06:53:22 am »
    The 69 B2 engines that I have had,  came with the shorter bolt heads, & the 70 engines had the longer ones.  My guess, it was a 69 to 70 change.  Maybe the engineers were worried about being too close,  but I think it is too far away !

Online JohnSlack

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Re: Windage tray bolt tech
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2019, 08:45:34 am »
    The 69 B2 engines that I have had,  came with the shorter bolt heads, & the 70 engines had the longer ones.  My guess, it was a 69 to 70 change.  Maybe the engineers were worried about being too close,  but I think it is too far away !

I just was pointing out that sometime in early December of 1969 the factory prior to the taller head bolts added spacers to a run of the windage trays to deal with the issue.
John
Have you driven a Ford Lately?

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2010 Mustang GT Red Candy Metallic
1970 BOSS 302 Mustang Lime Green Metallic
1969 1/2  BOSS 302 Mustang Calypso Coral
1962 Porsche 356B-T6 Silver-Black interior (It's a Porsche that is what they should be.)

Offline pbf777

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Re: Windage tray bolt tech
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2019, 08:59:54 am »
     Maybe the engineers were worried about being too close,  but I think it is too far away !

     
     
     
     And, I have witnessed this, and realized post such failure, that there ain't much remaining metal to hold the head on....................        ;)

   

     When one is holding a two piece fastener in their hand, it isn't imaginary!        ;)


     Also I am interested in, and I am not disputing this , the welded spacers, as possible O.E.M. installations?  Also of interference of the windage tray with the 1969 O.E.M. revolving assemblies?  Although simple and direct, this would seem to me, an odd solution for Ford Manufacturing to adopt.  Does any one else have any additional information or witnessed this subject?     

     I only know of the windage tray #C9ZZ-6687-B as being the unit most encountered, with the #C9ZE-6345-A being the '69 short head bolt, and the #DOZE-6345-A being the '70 taller head bolt, I don't have the number(s) for the tray retaining bolts, and I would think it would require two different fasteners here as with or without the additional thickness incurred by the washer/spacer application, and then there was the Ford Motorsport #M-6687-A a "continuation series" kit.  Any incorrect part numbers, go ahead and hammer me, but does any one have any other Ford numbers for say the modified tray-washer-weldment unit?        ???

     And while I'm making a muck of this topic, hey Randy, or anyone else, (as perhaps I'm only trying to drag others down with me in my lost ramblings) where's the SK and/or XE numbers for the original renditions of this tray; and was it developed for the earlier Trans-Am cars or a product developed for the production Boss 302, and perhaps then transitioned to the T.A. cars., i.e. which came first, the chicken or the egg?        ::) 

     Thank you,
     Scott.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 11:02:56 am by pbf777 »

Online JohnSlack

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Re: Windage tray bolt tech
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2019, 10:21:58 pm »
     Maybe the engineers were worried about being too close,  but I think it is too far away !

     
     
     
     And, I have witnessed this, and realized post such failure, that there ain't much remaining metal to hold the head on....................        ;)

   

     When one is holding a two piece fastener in their hand, it isn't imaginary!        ;)


     Also I am interested in, and I am not disputing this , the welded spacers, as possible O.E.M. installations?  Also of interference of the windage tray with the 1969 O.E.M. revolving assemblies?  Although simple and direct, this would seem to me, an odd solution for Ford Manufacturing to adopt.  Does any one else have any additional information or witnessed this subject?     

     I only know of the windage tray #C9ZZ-6687-B as being the unit most encountered, with the #C9ZE-6345-A being the '69 short head bolt, and the #DOZE-6345-A being the '70 taller head bolt, I don't have the number(s) for the tray retaining bolts, and I would think it would require two different fasteners here as with or without the additional thickness incurred by the washer/spacer application, and then there was the Ford Motorsport #M-6687-A a "continuation series" kit.  Any incorrect part numbers, go ahead and hammer me, but does any one have any other Ford numbers for say the modified tray-washer-weldment unit?        ???

     And while I'm making a muck of this topic, hey Randy, or anyone else, (as perhaps I'm only trying to drag others down with me in my lost ramblings) where's the SK and/or XE numbers for the original renditions of this tray; and was it developed for the earlier Trans-Am cars or a product developed for the production Boss 302, and perhaps then transitioned to the T.A. cars., i.e. which came first, the chicken or the egg?        ::) 

     Thank you,
     Scott.

Scott,
The Trans Am windage trays were very different than the production parts. I was quite surprised to see the welded spacers on the windage tray as well.
PM me your number I will call you.
John
Have you driven a Ford Lately?

https://youtu.be/C2fY6-Ggfoo


2010 Mustang GT Red Candy Metallic
1970 BOSS 302 Mustang Lime Green Metallic
1969 1/2  BOSS 302 Mustang Calypso Coral
1962 Porsche 356B-T6 Silver-Black interior (It's a Porsche that is what they should be.)

Offline gt350hr

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Re: Windage tray bolt tech
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2019, 10:08:31 am »
   Scott,
      The T/A windage tray ( and most of it's variants) were designed by Ford engineer R.Kowalski. He apparently was THE man when it came to oil systems. The designs began for the tunnel port which we all know had to be revved to make HP. Those trays attached to four of the outer bolts on the four bolt main blocks . For those that haven't seen one , they are flat as opposed to "rounded except for the angle areas on each side of the flat center portion. There are at least ten revisions to the basic part. They are also know as the Holman Moody windage tray as many of them were sent there to be sold off after the factory T/A program stopped.
   Randy
'66 GT350H (6S477)1of 18 white w/blue side stripes - drag raced mostly w / Boss 302 power for 35+ years
68.5 Cobra Jet fb  white w/blue c stripe 4spd
sorry never owned a Boss car just engines
cover Car Craft July '77 with my Boss powered GT350
cover/article Mustang Illustrated Fall 1987 w/all aluminum SK 351 Cleveland powered Mustang II
cover /article Modified Mustangs Feb 2011
cover Mustang Monthly  June 2014

Offline BlueOval Ralph

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Re: Windage tray bolt tech
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2019, 06:29:23 am »
I took a MOPAR windage tray for the 360 A engine and modified it by cutting sections out and added screen to it. It turned out to be a better part for the 3.25 stroke and aluminum rods and the cost from MOPAR as I remember was about $10.00 bucks. There is a picture in Super Stock Magazine of it and the pan Nov or Dec of 77.