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Offline BOSS-STANG

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Battery Problems
« on: January 12, 2019, 11:56:23 am »
I'm having battery problems with my 2010 F150. I bought a nice used 2010 F150 XLT 4.6L 3v. in April 2014. Only has 67,400 miles on it. Its been a great truck. But since then I have gone through 3 batteries. The original and 2 replacement Motorcraft batteries BTX 65 650s. I have had it in to have the system check and no open circuts were found. The two replacement batteries last about a year and a half. My 3rd battery is starting to give me problems. I live in western NY and we do have cold winters. I don't drive the truck all the much in the winter. At the moment if I let the truck set for 3 or 4 days it doesn't crank hard enough  to start so I get out the charger and with in 5 minutes of quick charging it starts. I'm wondering if my anti theft indicator which blinks every 2 seconds when the ignition is of is enough to run the battery down during cold weather? Or could it be my alternator charging intermittently? When I got replacement batteries I check the manufactured date. I know all about new batteries setting around for months or even years before their sold. I had the replacements with the newest dates installed. But its not like the old days when you bought a new battery and they sold the dry then filled them with acid, charged them and you were on your way. Plus all the cheap Chinese made batteries out there are junk. Any ideas ? Thanks for any suggestions.

Offline CaBossFan

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2019, 12:48:58 pm »
I would check to see if there is any corrosion where the cables connect to the battery, along where the cables connect to the starter and ground to the chassis.  It is possible that your starter may need to be replaced, although this is probably not the problem.  You may have a open circuit that is causing the battery to discharge and you'll have to take it to a dealer to find the problem  I doubt that you could have bought 3 batteries that would go out in such a short period as I have 4 vehicles that I don't drive much and haven't had a battery fail that was less than 5 years old. 

Offline Joe0T02G148942

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2019, 01:41:39 pm »
  If you are a DYI guy you can tackle this. By all means check your connections first. But from what you described that the battery gets run down this may prove helpful.You may have an excessive draw on the battery when the truck sits. 3 or 4 days should not be a problem. Also if the alternator output if below requirements it will put strain on the battery. Likewise a weak battery will over work the alternator. Check your alternator output first 70@525rpms to 155 amps@2000rpms. It should maintain 14 volts with loads on.
  Per the shop manual for the draw test. It should not exceed 50mA draw. Exercise caution handling battery and cables!
1. Drive the vehicle for at least 5 mins and over 30mph .
2. Make access to to fuse panel and power distribution box. All lights and accessories should be off as well as the ignition. I would close the latches on the doors you need to access so as not to wake up any modules later.
3.Allow the vehicle to sit with the key out of the ignition for at least 40 minutes. Modules will power down.
4.Connect a fused jumper wire (30Amp fuse) between the negative battery cable and battery post to prevent the modules from waking. Remember if contact is lost step three will need to be done AGAIN. 40 minutes lost so be delegent.
5.Disconnect the negative battery cable without loosing the constant connection of the jumper wire.
6.Reminds us not to lose that jumper connection.Connect a meter between the negative battery and the post. The meter must be capable of reading milliamps and should have 10 amp internal fuse. Set the meter to the milliamp scale and attach the leads to the meter, cable and battery. If you turn on any loads accidentally you WILL blow the fuse.
7.Remove the jumper wire.
8.Note the amperage draw. If it is less than 50 milliamps the battery or charging system may be at fault.
9.If the draw is excessive start pulling fuses one at a time(leave them out) until the meter drops below 50mA. Once you identify the fuse that is on the circuit of the excessive draw you should see what components get power from that fuse. Then I would disconnect the easiest component first put the fuse back in and check again. If that wasn't the one move to the next and so on til the source is found.
10.Involves wiring diagrams and checks the BJB or the SJB. You will need diagrams if you get this far.
I hope you find this information useful for your situation.
Joe

 

Offline libuilder

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2019, 02:03:31 pm »
If all of the aforementioned testing is inconclusive, some other possibilities.

Do you know if the truck has a LoJack tracking device installed?  As they get old, the LoJack battery goes bad and places a drain on the system intermittently.  Since it does not drain the battery all he time, finding it by removing fuses is difficult.  Finding the LoJack in the car is a problem, since LoJack will not divulge where they hid it and they charge a fee for removal. 

Along the same lines, some car dealers install GPS trackers and shut off systems in their cars so that they can harass customers who are late in paying.  If they don’t remove them when the car is fully paid, they can cause the same problems.

I have had two cars with LoJacks installed that exhibited the same battery problems that you are experiencing. 

Offline BOSS-STANG

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2019, 02:35:59 pm »
Thanks guys for your input. All my connections are fine and as I mentioned no open circuits were found, but who knows. These damn new vehicles have so many sensors, modules and active electrical components is mind boggling. Battery cables look like new. Don't know if I have a LoJack tracking device. Where would it be located? Don't believe it does as my truck was all paid off in 1 year. I did not finance with the dealer did that through my bank. So I owe nothing. I will have the alternator checked as that was my next suspicion. I'm not a good spark chaser so I'll need someone to assist me on those issues but. I will make note of what you guys recommend.

 My brother has a 2012 F150 and still has the original battery in his truck. He only lives 6 miles from me so he is subjected to the same weather. I'm still wondering about my anti theft indicator that blinks every 2 seconds while the truck is not running. It wasn't activated when I bought the truck but my son and I fiddled around with the 2 keys one of which activates the anti theft indicator. I read the owners manual about how to deactivate it but its not written so I can't understand it. Very confusing. One other note. Last week I checked the cells and 3 or 4 cells were down little on electrolyte. I topped them off with distilled water and it didn't seem make much difference. I started it up today with no problem but I'm worried it won't start if I let it set for 3 or 4 days.

My son had trouble last year with his 2012 Mustang GT. It sat for 4 weeks and it roached the battery. A friend of mine let his new Caddy set for 3 weeks and it too wouldn't start. These new vehicles give me a pain where a pill couldn't reach.
Thanks again guys feel free to post any other suggestions.

Offline CaBossFan

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2019, 03:14:36 pm »
I found a website where a number of F-150 reported that the vehicle would not start after just sitting for a few days:

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/Discussion-t32459_ds542264

There were so many complaints that I didn't try to read them all, but did see where some reported problems with various wiring harnesses.  A few owners disconnected the battery for a period of time and found that the F-150 started without a problem.  You might try and contact Ford directly and see if they can help. - Mark

Offline BOSS-STANG

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2019, 05:16:04 pm »
Mark,
Thanks for the car gurus site. Looks like many other F150 owners are having the same problem. I like what one guys said. They have pushed the 12V system to the max and it needs to be upgraded to 24V system. I also have a remote starter which I never use. Could that be the problem ? And as I mentioned my anti theft system is active all the time the vehicle sets. Another possibility ?

 I don't know if I can trust the techs at my nearby Ford dealer. 2 years ago when I had my truck inspected the tech couldn't get my stock lug nuts off to inspect the breaks. I had to take them off myself at home. They were the stainless cap covered lug nuts and the tech used about 400 ft/lbs. on his impact wrench and stripped them. Needless to say I was P.Oed when I went back. They didn't charge me for the inspection. I can't believe the techs in these dealerships are properly trained on diagnostics on all vehicles. I have heard allot of stories about other dealerships, not just Ford where the dealer tech can't find certain problems and the costumer just leaves in frustration.

Online crossboss

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2019, 05:50:46 pm »
FWIW,
Motorcraft batteries are junk from my own experience. Wal-Mart batteries are better, believe it or not. I lived in So-Cal were the summer temps reached up to 120 degrees, the A/C blowing, and NEVER had an issue with my truck not starting…even sitting for days. That said, (and as mentioned) check for any electrical power draws, shorts, alt condition, good grounds, and batt cable connections. IF all checks out, then most likely its from the junk (Chinese) made batteries. You may want to look into a deep cycle marine type battery with high cranking and reserve power. Something to consider...
Current lifelong projects:
1969 Mustang Fastback/FOX chassis, 6 speed, 4 wheel discs, with a modern Can-Am 494 (Boss 429), Kaase headed, intake mounted with a 1425 cfm 'B' Autolite Inline carb, ala Trans-Am style…Whew!

Offline CaBossFan

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2019, 06:01:21 pm »
I know that the computer(s) on current vehicles require a constant source of power and will draw the battery down a lot quicker than vehicles that do not have a computer.  You could put in a kill switch on your F-150 or leave it hooked up to a trickle charger.  The only problem with a kill switch is that is will clear the memory on your computer.  When I changed the battery on my 1998 Z28, I hadn't driven the car enough in order to pass the required bi-annual smog check that we have in California, so I had to take the car out on a long drive and then had the Z28 retested.  With the exception of the BOSS 302, I try to drive my other cars at least once a week and will put on a trickle charger after driving them. - Mark

Offline BOSS-STANG

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2019, 07:42:22 pm »
Mark,
I had thought about the trickle charger too but that seems like a real pain as my truck sets out side all winter. And also though about a kill switch but am afraid the computer eventually going haywire doing so many resets. My current battery was purchased in Aug. 2016. Why has it functioned well until now? I'm thinking my remote starter my be the culprit. I have never used it. Could that be the problem ?

Offline CaBossFan

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2019, 08:06:24 pm »
I checked the O'Reilly Auto Parts website and one of the recommended batteries for a 2010 F-150 was a Motorcraft BXTG5-850 battery, which has a rating of CCA 850, the highest listed for any battery for the F-150.  I know that cold weather is tough on batteries and when it gets really cold, it takes a lot of current to start a vehicle.  I recently replaced the battery in the BOSS 302 and bought a Bosch CCA 960 that was meant for a 911 Porsche as it was 13 inches in length, but still a little short for my trunk-mounted group 29 tray that was originally made for the BOSS 429.  The BOSS 302 certainly starts now without a problem!

I don't think your remote starter switch or anti-theft is causing the battery to drain after 4 days.  Perhaps when the weather is good, you can hook up a trickle charger and see if it helps the battery life. - Mark

Offline hotrodford

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2019, 08:18:48 pm »
I have a 2000 F-250 with the 7.3.  I can let it sit 2 weeks without running or charging but that is about max.  About a year ago it would run the batteries (has two batteries) completely dead in two days.  Took it to the dealer and they discovered a leaking windshield (not leaking enough to even get the carpet wet).  Water was getting into the GEM.  Sealed the windshield and now it is back to the two weeks.  Have a 2017 Mustang, if it sits more than a couple of weeks the computer shuts everything off so it doesn't run down the battery.

Offline BOSS-STANG

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2019, 08:30:14 pm »
Mark,
I guess we think alike. My battery is a BTX 65 650 which is 650 CC amps. My Brothers is a 750 CC amps. It appears the 650 cc amp batteries are not sufficient to hold up to harsh weather if they set. My brother has had no problems. I have been pricing out batteries and am thinking Optima. Pricy I know. I'd rather not spend that kin of money. Ford lists a BTX 65 850 which has 875 CC amps. I'll check into those. I think my current battery is still under 36 month warranty so I'll check with the dealer.
Thanks for your input.
Larry

Offline Joe0T02G148942

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2019, 12:58:25 am »
 Any added on accessory could cause an excessive draw and should be disconnected before a draw test. Remote start just because it hasn't been used should not be given a pass, it has to draw some power to wake up when the remote is activated. The theft light would not be something to worry about if it only flickers on and off. Water leaks and dampness in in the interior can also cause wiring and/or module problems leading to excessive draw. I saw one truck that had muriatic acid was spilled on the rear carpet. It kept having intermittent electrical issues and deterioration of the chrome trim. Breathing while working on it caused irritation to the point of coughing. The insurance company wrote it off as a total loss.

Joe

Offline rhjanes

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2019, 07:44:06 am »
Mark,
I had thought about the trickle charger too but that seems like a real pain as my truck sets out side all winter. And also though about a kill switch but am afraid the computer eventually going haywire doing so many resets. My current battery was purchased in Aug. 2016. Why has it functioned well until now? I'm thinking my remote starter my be the culprit. I have never used it. Could that be the problem ?
I have three Battery Tender trickle chargers.  One is on my 20 year old F250 Diesel (2 batteries).  The Battery Tender comes with an adapter that uses clips to the battery, then a short pigtail with a one-way quick disconnect.  Then I have my Battery Tender (a larger one for the truck, which is parked outside), and bought the Battery Tender 25 foot extension.  So where the truck is, there is just the line running out of the shop and over to the truck, then the quick disconnect.  I just have to remember to remove the steering wheel lock, turn the key to ON (diesel start process to start the glow plugs), walk to the front and pull apart the quick disconnect, tossing the extra line on the driveway, get in, start and drive off.  Look into the Battery Tender options, the quick disconnect and their extension if you need it. 

Offline Clifford

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2019, 10:20:03 am »
On your next battery you should consider upgrading to the 850 CCA battery. Two things tend to kill a battery excessive heat and excessive power drain while not running. Also another issue to consider is high amps recharging your battery when your vehicle is running. If your battery is getting overcharged it will boil off the acid in your battery.

So summing it up, issues to consider:

Is the battery being over charged?

Summer heat (as well as overcharging) can be an issue. A lot of vehicle come from the factory with an insulation blanket thing around the battery to protect the battery from underhood heat. Sometimes these blanket things get pictched during ownership of the previous owner.   

Get the larger 850 CCA battery.

A little blinking LED blinking light really shouldn't be using that much energy. Look/trouble-shoot for other battery drain issues.

The Big Red Dog

Offline BOSS-STANG

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2019, 11:20:27 am »
Thats what I'm thinking is getting a Motorcraft BXT 65 850 battery. I don't seem to have any problems in warm weather but the last battery I had crapped. out in Aug. of 2016. It was only a year and a half old. So many possibilities from all who have responded my head is about to spin off. Relays and modules and sensors oh my. I hate modern technology. >:(

Offline Clifford

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2019, 11:12:02 pm »
I have an older Ford van with the 7.3L diesel engine. It has two batteries and due to the limited space under the hood one battery is smaller than the other. The owners manual suggests if I have to replace one battery I should replace them both. Problem is they both don't go bad at the same time. So I figure why not just replace the one that is bad/weak so that's what I do. When I start having starting issues due to one of the batteries being weak how do I know which battery is the problem battery? Your local chain auto parts store has a portable battery load/life testing meter. They will check your battery/batteries for free and this meter will tell you how much life is left in your battery. You don't have to take the battery out of your vehicle to get it checked. This is what I do so I know which is the weak battery that needs replacing.

A cold battery (like during cold winter weather) has less available energy/power for starting. A "weak" cold battery will have even less energy for starting. Bottom line is if you have an old/weak battery you need to replace it. Let your local auto parts store check your battery and if it needs replacing, replace it. But it doesn't mater if its 650 or 850 CCA, if its bad or weak it will give you problems in cold temperatures. Get it replaced.

My 3rd battery is starting to give me problems. I live in western NY and we do have cold winters. I don't drive the truck all the much in the winter. At the moment if I let the truck set for 3 or 4 days it doesn't crank hard enough  to start so I get out the charger and with in 5 minutes of quick charging it starts. I'm wondering if my anti theft indicator which blinks every 2 seconds when the ignition is of is enough to run the battery down during cold weather? Or could it be my alternator charging intermittently?

This symptom sounds like a battery that is weak/old and it needs to be replaced. Have your local auto part store put their meter on it and give you a battery diagnosis.

A 850 CCA battery will make a world of difference over a 650 CCA battery and you will happy you made the upgrade.

Its been a great truck. But I have gone through 3 batteries. The original and 2 replacement Motorcraft batteries BTX 65 650s. I have had it in to have the system check and no open circuits were found. The two replacement batteries last about a year and a half. My 3rd battery is starting to give me problems.

Excessive underhood heat and over-heating from overcharging will shorten the life of any battery. Showing no open circuits will not tell you if your charging system is over-charging your battery.

 
I live in western NY and we do have cold winters. I don't drive the truck all the much in the winter. At the moment if I let the truck set for 3 or 4 days it doesn't crank hard enough to start so I get out the charger and with in 5 minutes of quick charging it starts. I'm wondering if my anti theft indicator which blinks every 2 seconds when the ignition is of is enough to run the battery down during cold weather?

No, not if it is a good battery. Yes possibly if it is a weak/old battery.

Or could it be my alternator charging intermittently?

No, not in my opinion. I doubt this is the issue.
The Big Red Dog

Offline rhjanes

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2019, 07:29:56 am »
I have an older Ford van with the 7.3L diesel engine. It has two batteries and due to the limited space under the hood one battery is smaller than the other. The owners manual suggests if I have to replace one battery I should replace them both. Problem is they both don't go bad at the same time. So I figure why not just replace the one that is bad/weak so that's what I do. When I start having starting issues due to one of the batteries being weak how do I know which battery is the problem battery? Your local chain auto parts store has a portable battery load/life testing meter. They will check your battery/batteries for free and this meter will tell you how much life is left in your battery. You don't have to take the battery out of your vehicle to get it checked. This is what I do so I know which is the weak battery that needs replacing.

I've had my two battery diesel for 20 years now.  Early on, I also tried to only replace one battery, when only one failed.  Every time, I wound up replacing the second battery within 4 months.  The weak battery, means the good battery is getting hammered to start the diesel.  I belong to a Texas Power Stroke forum and everyone also reported the same issue.  Better to just replace them both when one goes bad. 
If the alternator goes out, I also replace both batteries.
On testing, I actually own a load tester.  It's a handy tool!  But when testing a vehicle with dual batteries, you need to completely disconnect one of the batteries cables before any test.  Isolate the batteries.  Otherwise, the good battery (which you don't know which is which), will compensate for the bad one. 

Offline BOSS-STANG

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2019, 10:56:24 am »
Could it be that my alternator is over charging? Last week I had to top off the cells with distilled water. The voltage regulator not functioning right would do that right? But the regulators are built inside the alternator. So can a shop test the internals of a alternator/voltage regulator?

Offline Clifford

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2019, 02:27:55 pm »
I've had my two battery diesel for 20 years now.  Early on, I also tried to only replace one battery, when only one failed.  Every time, I wound up replacing the second battery within 4 months.  The weak battery, means the good battery is getting hammered to start the diesel.  I belong to a Texas Power Stroke forum and everyone also reported the same issue.  Better to just replace them both when one goes bad. 

My Van is a 1996. I too have had it for 20 years. I have not had an issue with losing the second battery within 6 months. I have also replaced my alternator twice during my ownership. Batteries were not replaced at that time. I have 280,000 miles on my van presently.

On testing, I actually own a load tester.  It's a handy tool!  But when testing a vehicle with dual batteries, you need to completely disconnect one of the batteries cables before any test.  Isolate the batteries.  Otherwise, the good battery (which you don't know which is which), will compensate for the bad one.

This is true, with dual batteries diesel powered vehicles one needs to isolate/disconnect one battery in order to check each battery. I didn't point that out since BOSS-STANG's truck is not a diesel and only has one battery. I wouldn't mind having a load tester to do this test at home, but the auto parts stores do it for free right in their parking lot. Its a simple test to let you know what shape your battery is in. If one expects an issue with their battery its easy to go get it checked at your local auto parts store. Like I said they do it for free.

Could it be that my alternator is over charging? Last week I had to top off the cells with distilled water. The voltage regulator not functioning right would do that right? But the regulators are built inside the alternator. So can a shop test the internals of a alternator/voltage regulator?

Could your alternator be over-charging? Possibly yes, but not necessarily.

The voltage regulator not functioning right would do that right? Typically yes.

But the regulators are built inside the alternator. So can a shop test the internals of a alternator/voltage regulator? Yes on today's vehicles the voltage regulator is internal to the alternator. Yes, it can be tested both in-vehicle or your alternator can be bench-tested for function. Most decent auto part stores can bench test one for you. If your vehicle is over-charging your battery it would help explain why you are having to replace batteries more frequently than normally.

There must be a reason you are going through batteries. They all can't be bad batteries from the manufacturer. Batteries can go bad for a few various reasons. Excessive heat from overcharging can be one of them. It only makes sense to check to see if you do or don't have an over-charging issue. If you are adding distilled water to your battery that might be symptom of an overcharging issue.

In my opinion first check to see if you have a good battery in your vehicle currently. If its good then go get the charging system checked. If the battery is weak and only has a 1/4 of its life left consider replacing it. If replacing, replace it with a better 850 CCA battery and then go get a charging system check.

Nothing wrong with the suggestion of having a trickle charger, but that still won't solve the initial issue (root cause) of why you are going through batteries at an abnormal rate. The suggestion of checking with a Ford dealer on looking up service bulletins on this issue should be looked into too. 
« Last Edit: January 14, 2019, 05:45:38 pm by Clifford »
The Big Red Dog

Offline rhjanes

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2019, 04:52:29 pm »
Clifford and I have had opposite experiences with two battery diesels! 

Offline BOSS-STANG

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2019, 09:17:44 am »
Think I found my battery problem. For quite some time I have had tire pressure problems. My 2 front tires kept losing air, around 15 -20 pounds every few days. Being lackadaisical in trying to find the real source I just filled them with air over and over again. This activated my low pressure warning light and causing a drain on the battery while the truck set for a few days. The low pressure sensor draws juice off the battery even when the ignition is off I believe. So I finally said enough.

 I took it to a tire shop and they pulled the 2 front tires and found a bit of corrosion on the rim and a bit more where the wheel weights were hooked on. So the tire tech wire wheeled the rims, put on new wheel weights, applied some sealer on the bead and balanced the tires and installed 2 new valve stems. Have had no issues as of yet. Battery seems to crank really well after setting for a few days and even the other day when we had sub zero temps she fired right up. I need to have the 2 rears checked just make sure. Didn't have time the other day to have all 4 done but at least I believe that was my problem. It only cost me $67 total. Cheaper than throwing money at a battery I didn't really need.  :)

Offline CaBossFan

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2019, 11:11:47 am »
BOSS-STANG - Sounds like you found your problem with batteries failing.  Do you recall having the tire pressure indicator light being on when you first had a battery fail? - Mark

Offline BOSS-STANG

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2019, 03:04:41 pm »
Yes I did but didn't think much of it. This new technology of today is pretty touchy feely. I don't know how any tech could have ever found the problem as I would not have driven it to a shop when the low tire pressure warning light was on. Last winter my check engine light came on. Went to Auto Zone and they put a code reader on it and the code stated bad gas tank evap. solenoid. I went of Youtube Collage and found a video on the topic that I was having a problem with. The guy stated before you replace you evap. solenoid check the green wire coming out of the harness. Mine was corroded and pull right off. Fixed the wire and BINGO engine light went off. They would have charged me $1200 at the dealer to replace the whole harness. But all the suggestions from all the board members here started to help me put this puzzle together. So many thanks to every one.  ;)

Offline CaBossFan

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2019, 03:18:50 pm »
BOSS-STANG - I think you solved your battery problem - good job!  I remember when I was working at The Boeing Company and we had a significant problem that needed to be addressed and no one had any ideas.  Breaking the silence, the team leader said "Mark, do you have any ideas?"  I knew then we were really in trouble!!!

Offline BOSS-STANG

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2019, 03:35:59 pm »
CaBossFan,

Sometimes the answers are right in front of you or where you least expect it. I'm glad it was an easy fix. You can really chase your tail on some of these problems. Where did you work for Boeing ? Was it in Kansas ? I have an ole war buddy who worked there.

Offline CaBossFan

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Re: Battery Problems
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2019, 03:58:26 pm »
BOSS-STANG - I starting working in Long Beach with McDonnell-Douglas before they merged with Boeing.  I then went over to the facility we had in Carson on the C-17 Program and then went back to Long Beach, then to Huntington Beach, then to Seal Beach, then to Torrance.  When Boeing sold the Torrance operation to L-3, I decided to go to Northrop Grumman.  I found that having long-term employment in the aerospace industry was even worse than the years I spent with General Motors!