Author Topic: Trans Am '70 B2  (Read 2099 times)

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Offline 1NiceBoss

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Trans Am '70 B2
« on: December 13, 2019, 05:25:55 am »
Hey there my fellow B2 fanatics!

This is awesome but is this for real?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-FORD-Mustang-Boss-Trans-Am-Race-Car/254451436393?hash=item3b3e7ccb69:g:iAwAAOSwuCBd8msJ

There are some really good photos by hitting the "full size photos" button. I am by no means up to date on these but seems like alot of modern day parts for a Trans Am car of the 70's....

Marty
Live everyday like it may be your last...You just don't know what tomorrow will bring.

Offline crossboss

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Re: Trans Am '70 B2
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2019, 07:45:50 am »
Its the Body In White #4 chassis. No race history. Very optimistic on the price in my opinion….
Current lifelong project:
1969 Mustang Fastback/FOX chassis, 5 speed, 4 wheel discs, with a modern Can-Am 494 (Boss 429), Kaase heads, intake mounted with a 1425 cfm 'B' Autolite Inline carb, ala Trans-Am style…Whew!

Offline JohnSlack

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Re: Trans Am '70 B2
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2019, 09:20:40 am »
I'm not going to comment on the value of the car. I will say that if you search for the BIW history on this thread you will find a lot of opinions. You will also find a good bit of history on  the body in white #4 which FoMoCo sent to Bud Moore. The car was not built until around 10 years ago. Ultimately however as the 2nd universal rule of value goes, "an object is only worth the higher of two values placed upon it by either the current entity in possession of the item, or the value placed on it by an entity wanting to take over possession of the item."
1st universal rule of value,
"Parts are parts, cash is only money and doesn't have the same value. You get that right?"

 2nd universal rule of value, "an object is only worth the higher of two values placed upon it by either the current entity in possession of the item, or the value placed on it by an entity wanting to take over possession of the item."

Current;
9F02Z159758
0F02G106990
Former;
9R02R122420
9T02M202688
0R05Q147920
0T02G125836
9F02Z159758 KK1383

Offline 70BossTA

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Re: Trans Am '70 B2
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2019, 09:37:09 am »
Marty,

As stated, the is BM BIW#4.  It was sold at auction in last year or so and did NOT bring the kind of $$ that it took just to build it!!  Sadly Bud Moore actually did help the builder restore this Mustang.....BUT despite his offer to make it as Donnie Allison was going to race it, in 1972 Trans-Am, the builder just made it into another SBY BM Mustang!!  IMO it could of been a "1 of 1" Bud Moore Mustang and a collector piece.  Now it has NO race history, most vintage groups will not allow it and you have one very expensive track day Mustang....!!!  Optimistic price is an understatement! 
Just me!

Ed 
Previously owned: 
SFM5S271  65 Shelby (B/P)
#16-Peter Gregg 1971-BIW#1 SBY BM team 
0F02G157794 Second owner - (Grabber Orange)

Offline Danoh1

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Re: Trans Am '70 B2
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2019, 07:52:48 pm »
Jim’s blue car is a far better deal.  Same “no history from the day”, better build quality, vintage correct.  Fantastic workmanship. 

If I could sell my airplane, I’d buy Jim’s car.  IRS took all my savings.  So I’m in no position to buy ANOTHER race car.  But, I darn sure “want” Jim’s car. 
1970 M code Boss T/A (ala Dano)  link to racecar
HHP

Offline 70BossTA

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Re: Trans Am '70 B2
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2019, 10:10:26 am »
Danoh,
           I 100% Agree.  Jim's Mustang is a work of art and full of wonderful correct details!  Another "Cool" thing is he went with the # 3.  So no confusion when it goes to races!  Class act and GREAT guy...RIP, Jim.
Previously owned: 
SFM5S271  65 Shelby (B/P)
#16-Peter Gregg 1971-BIW#1 SBY BM team 
0F02G157794 Second owner - (Grabber Orange)

Offline JohnSlack

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Re: Trans Am '70 B2
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2019, 12:45:14 pm »
Jim’s blue car is a far better deal.  Same “no history from the day”, better build quality, vintage correct.  Fantastic workmanship. 

If I could sell my airplane, I’d buy Jim’s car.  IRS took all my savings.  So I’m in no position to buy ANOTHER race car.  But, I darn sure “want” Jim’s car.

Dan,
I also want Jim's 1969 tribute car. The only thing I'd change is I'd put my correct 1969 engine in it. Everything else would be left alone! It's magnificent...at .38 cents on the dollar compared to the BIW #4. No question at all.
John
1st universal rule of value,
"Parts are parts, cash is only money and doesn't have the same value. You get that right?"

 2nd universal rule of value, "an object is only worth the higher of two values placed upon it by either the current entity in possession of the item, or the value placed on it by an entity wanting to take over possession of the item."

Current;
9F02Z159758
0F02G106990
Former;
9R02R122420
9T02M202688
0R05Q147920
0T02G125836
9F02Z159758 KK1383

Offline Clifford

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Re: Trans Am '70 B2
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2019, 05:01:56 pm »
As stated, the is BM BIW#4.  It was sold at auction in last year or so and did NOT bring the kind of $$ that it took just to build it!!  Sadly Bud Moore actually did help the builder restore this Mustang.....BUT despite his offer to make it as Donnie Allison was going to race it, in 1972 Trans-Am, the builder just made it into another SBY BM Mustang!!

Its the Body In White #4 chassis. No race history. Very optimistic on the price in my opinion….

Let's be clear on terminology. A Mustang is a "uni-body" vehicle. It does not have a separate vehicle frame and sheet metal body like what you see on a typical pick-up truck. A uni-body vehicle is such that there is no separate frame. The frame is incorporated as part of the sheet metal body's structure for a uni-body vehicle. A completed welded-together body of a uni-body vehicle is considered a "Body-in-White" or BIW for short.

A "chassis" and a vehicle "frame" are not synonymous terms. A dressed out vehicle frame with its suspension components attached would be considered a chassis. A Body-in-White is not a chassis.

This vehicle/race car in question here was made from a bare bones Body-in-White. This was a Body-in-White that was once in the possession of Budd Moore Engineering. This Body-in-White was one of several spare BIW's (there were 4 total spares) that Budd Moore Engineering had during the time Budd Moore Engineering was racing BOSS 302's in 1969 and 1970 for Ford Motor Company. The Body-in-Whites Budd Moore Engineering had were just basically on-hand as spare parts/spare bodies in case they were ever needed. This specific Body-in-White was never turned into race car while it was in the hands of Budd Moore Engineering. This current vehicle/race car does not have a Ford VIN since it started out from just a Body-in-White. For tracking/identification purposes this vehicle/race car was made using Budd Moore Body-in-White #4. This vehicle/race car was never raced by Budd Moore Engineering in the Trans Am series nor at any time while in the hands of Bud Moore Engineering as it was always just a spare, bare BIW. Although it was on a race track recently it does it have any significant racing history of any kind.

This BIW was built-up into a race car only recently. To use the term "restore" is also incorrect since it was never a car of any kind before. Since this car/BIW never had a VIN (official Ford Motor Company Vehicle Identification Number) to start with it can't legally be given an original FOMOCO Mustang VIN and titled for street use. Since this vehicle/race car has no significant race history it most likely won't qualify to compete in most vintage racing series.

As nice as this car has been turned into a Budd Moore 1970 BOSS 302 replica race car, as Ed Ludtke (70BossTA) has already stated this is "one very expensive track day Mustang". 
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 10:09:08 pm by Clifford »
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Offline MrGuts

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Re: Trans Am '70 B2
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2019, 08:42:12 pm »
I'm afraid I will have to respectfully disagree with Clifford and Ed regarding the eligibility of this car for vintage events. I will grant you this car wouldn't be allowed to run with the Historic Trans Am group or a premier event such as Monterey, but there are any number of other groups that would be happy to have this car participate in their event.

I am involved in the vintage racing scene in the Midwest and I'm sure that if the car met safety standards and the driver was properly credentialed, it would be allowed to run. That would be with SVRA, VSCDA, or the Road America July event. Many other groups would feel the same way. It happens on a regular basis.

The stance on a car having period history has softened over the years as the sanctioning bodies realized they needed to get cars registered to remain financially viable.

EG


Offline MichaelSedlak

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Re: Trans Am '70 B2
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2019, 07:30:05 am »
Quote
The stance on a car having period history has softened over the years as the sanctioning bodies realized they needed to get cars registered to remain financially viable.

And that is the issue with those of us that have historied cars "prepared correctly to the rules of the day". SVRA and several of the other sanctioning bodies allow folks to race old cars now to fill the fields.  Old cars driven through Summit or Jegs to make them race cars but never vintage race cars.  A lot, not all, don't have the respect for the cars that those of us who were there and have historied cars.  Remember the cars are the stars not the drivers. The vintage races? are more of a free for all anymore.  Over anxious drivers with more horsepower than the cars were ever designed for going like hell in a straight line and then tiptoeing around the corners.

Although not a BOSS I just bought back a 68 Mustang race car that I helped built in 1968 from a body in white with my mentor.  The car looks correct from the outside until you look underneath or open the hood and see all the modern day upgrades.  I'm sure I'm going to lose a lot of horsepower but I'm returning it to 68 specs T/A specs as it was built.

I still have my BOSS race car with history back to 1969 prepared correctly to the rules of the day but am reluctant to race it nowdays.

Although this car that the post is about is a nicely prepared replica it is in no way a vintage race car. If you say something enough times it doesn't make it true.  The previous owners were encouraged not to present the car the way they did and paid dearly for that when it came time to sell it. The market recognized the replica for what it was and it sold accordingly.  Its overpriced for a no history car
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 10:08:01 am by MichaelSedlak »

Offline Clifford

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Re: Trans Am '70 B2
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2019, 08:19:01 am »
I'm afraid I will have to respectfully disagree with Clifford and Ed regarding the eligibility of this car for vintage events. I will grant you this car wouldn't be allowed to run with the Historic Trans Am group or a premier event such as Monterey, but there are any number of other groups that would be happy to have this car participate in their event.

I am involved in the vintage racing scene in the Midwest and I'm sure that if the car met safety standards and the driver was properly credentialed, it would be allowed to run. That would be with SVRA, VSCDA, or the Road America July event. Many other groups would feel the same way. It happens on a regular basis.

The stance on a car having period history has softened over the years as the sanctioning bodies realized they needed to get cars registered to remain financially viable.

EG

EG, fair enough, I'll grant you your point.

This Mustang in question could have just as easily have been built-up from a Dynacorn body. As nice as a new race car as this Mustang might be, I just don't see that this Mustang in question, being built-up from a left-over spare body shell should receive any resale premium just because of who previously owned the spare body shell it was made from.

The seller has this car listed on eBay (auction # 254451436393) with an asking price of $199,900 or Best Offer. Go to the seller's website (autohandler.net) and you'll see this car listed for $179,000.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 08:51:26 am by Clifford »
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Offline MrGuts

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Re: Trans Am '70 B2
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2019, 05:54:37 am »
Michael and Clifford,

I agree with you both completely.

EG

Offline McKeever

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Re: Trans Am '70 B2
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2019, 05:16:28 pm »
+1

Thank goodness for Old Guy's like us !!!!
Owned my BOSS since March 1974.
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Offline SDBossRunner

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Re: Trans Am '70 B2
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2019, 11:11:41 pm »
Young guys like me agree as well!
1970 W-Code Grabber Orange B302 (restoration in progress, going back to Competition Yellow)

Offline jrboss

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Re: Trans Am '70 B2
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2019, 08:43:09 am »
Maybe the car is not worth 199,or 179 but it has Bud Moore's fingerprints on it,and that has to mean something.

EG and John bring up good points and someone will buy it,but like all of you I will be curious to see what it sells for in the end.

It might surprise us all.