Author Topic: Article about John Craft's Holman & Moody NASCAR Galaxie  (Read 416 times)

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Offline 1109RWHP

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Re: Article about John Craft's Holman & Moody NASCAR Galaxie
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2020, 09:15:57 pm »
I am looking forward to seeing the Torino.

Offline 0F02G202911

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Re: Article about John Craft's Holman & Moody NASCAR Galaxie
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2020, 10:59:55 pm »
Am I missing some subtle distinction between this restoration and the "re-body" GT-350 recently discussed?
http://www.boss302.com/smf/index.php?topic=83437.0
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Offline Clifford

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Re: Article about John Craft's Holman & Moody NASCAR Galaxie
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2020, 09:28:09 pm »
Am I missing some subtle distinction between this restoration and the "re-body" GT-350 recently discussed?

The other topic/thread was about a car for sale that 6T9BOSS saw in Hemmings Muscle Car Magazine. It started out as this:

Here is a question. I get Hemmings Muscle Car Mag.. really like it alot better than Hot Rod. In the sales section where auctions take place. A 1965 Shelby selling price 121K.. avg price was 435K. However the listing stated this: " Body replaced at time of Restoration " Does this mean this car was a re-body?????

6T9BOSS did not say what issue of HMC this ad was in, nor did he supply the VIN of the 1965 Shelby in question.

Based on the information supplied by 6T9BOSS I don't know enough about this 1965 GT350 Shelby Mustang to look it up in the SAAC (Shelby American Automobile Club) Registry to make any insightful judgment or comment about its originality, current value, who, when, or how it was restored, what its really worth today, or if its even a legal vehicle. I don't know anything about it's ownership or usage history or if it was just a street car or if it has any significant race history. All 6T9BOSS really asked was: "However the listing stated this: " Body replaced at time of Restoration " Does this mean this car was a re-body?????" I think 6T9BOSS's was answered very well by crossboss with this reply:

Yep, a re-body. Btw, altering the VIN number by removing it from one body and reattaching it to another is a Felony.

I'm not going to go into detail on what a "Re-body" is, or even discuss what an "Air Car" is, but I will point out that a Mustang is a Uni-Body vehicle. Un-like a Body-On-Frame vehicle like a Pick-up Truck where the vehicle has a body sitting on a separate frame, a Uni-Body has no separate frame. The vehicle's body acts as both the body and the frame. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but historically speaking (and legally speaking too) for a Body-On-Frame vehicle the VIN follows/belongs to the frame. Where as on a Uni-Body vehicle (that does not have a separate frame) the VIN belongs to the sheet metal body.

The referenced article in this Topic is about the discovery and restoration of a Holman & Moody 1964 Galaxie Race Car by Dr. John Craft. In the early days of NASCAR the vehicles were made from actual street cars. These NASCAR race cars were generically referred to as "Stock Cars". They started from a Body-On-Frame vehicle and they actually were raced in NASCAR (and other Stock Car type series) "with" their factory frame and their factory body. Like today as it was back then the do a little bumping and swap a little paint. Back then if one of these race cars got a little banged up on Sunday it would go back to the shop and the damaged metal would get replaced and it would look like new again in the next race the following Sunday. If the a race car received major body damage (and the frame was still usable) the whole body might bet replaced during the week before the next race. The point being made here is if you were to find an unrestored (or restored) 50+ year old NASCAR warrior today its doubtful it would be wearing little, if any of its original sheet metal.   

Dr. John Craft is a well known author and knowledgeable person on NASCAR racing. Starting from its actual 1964 Ford/Holman-Moody frame Craft rebuilt this car back into a 1964 NASCAR period correct racer in all its 1964 period-correct glory. Craft makes no excuses (nor does he hide the fact) that he used a rust-free 1964 Galaxie from a junk yard in Arizonia in the rebuild of this race car. But wouldn't or couldn't this be considered a normal part of the restoration of a 50+ year old race car?

0F02G202911 you asked: Am I missing some subtle distinction between this restoration and the "re-body" GT-350 recently discussed?

In my opinion "Yes" there are many differences here both large and subtle. First, this Topic is about a Mustang rebodied as a Shelby. The Topic you are referring to is the restoration of an old race car.

Second, a 1965 Shelby Mustang is a Uni-Body vehicle and a 1964 Galaxie is a Body-On-Frame vehicle.

Third, legally on a Uni-Body Vehicle the Body the VIN belongs to the Body. On a Body-On-Frame Vehicle the VIN belongs to the Frame.

Fourth, from the article we know the restoration history of this 1964 Galaxie race car, from the little information given on the 1965 Shelby for sale we know none of its past.

Fifth, this Galaxie has taken some time to be restored. It was restored by and for the pleasure of its current owner, Dr. John Craft. The Shelby is up for sale. It is not clear who the owner is, how long the current owner has had it, who did the rebody, or what profit the current owner will make on its sale. 

The Shelby is a rebody and its a Uni-Body vehicle. The VIN of the Shelby is now on the body of a different vehicle. Without knowing more about this Shelby, its not clear how much (if any) of the original Shelby made it on to the donated Mustang. What's the history of this Shelby? Its not clear, nor is there enough information to check it out or to comment on its authenticity or current value. SAAC keeps tabs on the early Shelbys. They have Registrars for each year and they publish an informative Shelby Registry. If the VIN of this Shelby were known, one could know more about it just by looking it up in the Registry. But if this Shelby has really has been rebodied from a Mustang then it is a vehicle that is carrying two VINs. The Shelby VIN on the Title and the Ford VIN from its original days when it was first licensed and put on the street. So what really is it, a real 1965 Shelby or a Mustang Shelby Clone bearing a Shelby title?

Craft's vehicle is a Body-On-Frame vehicle. The Frame of this vehicle is that of a 1964 Galaxie and it was one that came through the Holman-Moody shop and was made into a Stock Car in its beginning and it has actually history as NASCAR warrior. Yes, this car was restored by getting a rust free body from Arizona. But this is a restoration of a Stock Car race car. The replacement body was put on the original Galaxie frame and with a Body-On-Frame vehicle it is the Frame of the vehicle that the VIN belongs to.

I think there's a clear distinction between a Uni-Body Vehicle and a Body-On-Frame Vehicle and legally what the paper work of the Title applies to.

Although doing might now make a lot of sense I give you another item to ponder. If you had the body of a 1965 Shelby along with its paper title and if you had the frame of a 1964 Galaxie along with its paper title and you make a running car by placing the Shelby body on the Galaxie frame and then you want to run this vehicle on the street. So you trailer this Shelby-Galaxie hybrid down to your Department of Motor vehicles to get a license plate for it so you can drive it on the street. You present both titles in your name to them showing you own both parts and you ask to be issued a license plate; Will they give you the license plate for the Shelby or the Galaxie? Answer is that they will typically consider this hybrid to be a Galaxie and the Galaxie will be given the license plate.
 
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 09:44:03 pm by Clifford »
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Offline 0F02G202911

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Re: Article about John Craft's Holman & Moody NASCAR Galaxie
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2020, 03:52:22 pm »
Thank you, Clifford for your excellent response. I am sorry I was a little snarky with the way I posed the question. I was just a bit baffled why one "re-bodied" car was derided and the other lauded.
So your main points are that the '64 was of body and frame construction, the frame being the essential component, and that it had come through the H/M shop and became a race car. Then since body parts were expendable and routinely replaced during the course of a race car's life, it is 'justifiable' to replace the entire body during the restoration of this kind of car. Do I have that correct?

It makes me wonder what our discussions about Mustang restorations would be like if they had been of body-and-frame construction.




Gary
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Offline McKeever

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Re: Article about John Craft's Holman & Moody NASCAR Galaxie
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2020, 05:19:35 pm »
+1

Thanks for asking the question, and Thanks for the great reply!
Owned my BOSS since March 1974.
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Offline gt350hr

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Re: Article about John Craft's Holman & Moody NASCAR Galaxie
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2020, 09:12:52 am »
   Another lesser known fact is "some" of the best chassis WERE rebodied by H&M and HM/Stroppe in the day to save time and effort . Some of these early cars were also rebodied as Torinos . The Holman Moody chassis number is the key here. Dr. Craft does not deal in halucinations.
   Randy
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sorry never owned a Boss car just engines
cover Car Craft July '77 with my Boss powered GT350
cover/article Mustang Illustrated Fall 1987 w/all aluminum SK 351 Cleveland powered Mustang II
cover /article Modified Mustangs Feb 2011
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Offline Clifford

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Re: Article about John Craft's Holman & Moody NASCAR Galaxie
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2020, 12:48:24 am »
Thank you, Clifford for your excellent response. I am sorry I was a little snarky with the way I posed the question. I was just a bit baffled why one "re-bodied" car was derided and the other lauded.
So your main points are that the '64 was of body and frame construction, the frame being the essential component, and that it had come through the H/M shop and became a race car. Then since body parts were expendable and routinely replaced during the course of a race car's life, it is 'justifiable' to replace the entire body during the restoration of this kind of car. Do I have that correct?

It makes me wonder what our discussions about Mustang restorations would be like if they had been of body-and-frame construction.
Snarky or not you raised some interesting questions. Meaning no disrespect to you or your question if there is any point I'm making it is that there "is" a distinction between a Body-On-Frame vehicle and a Uni-Body vehicle. The first production Uni-Body vehicle was the 1960 Ford Falcon. Before that production vehicles were Body-On-Frame vehicles. Today a vehicle doesn't have to have a separate frame and body, or even a "sheet metal" Uni-Body for that matter. There are cars that are made out of carbon fiber and there are even people working on laser printed vehicles.

Yes there are some parallels that can be drawn between replacing a body on a Body-On-Frame vehicle and doing a re-body of/on/with a Uni-Body vehicle. But all I'm saying is that a Body-On-Frame vehicle, like that of a 1964 Galaxie, "the frame" of Galaxie is what legally has claim to the VIN and any title paperwork should go with the frame. If an owner of a 1964 Galaxie frame changes the body on the frame the vehicle the resulting vehicle should still be legally titled and licensed as that 1964 Galaxie.
Now if you are questioning if it “justifiable” to replace the entire body in the restoration of this old 1964 Galaxie NASCAR race car that is perhaps another question, but it should be “legal” in the eyes of a local state department of motor vehicles and the federal authorities for the owner to do so.     
Shelby Mustangs came along before BOSS Mustangs. People have been cloning Shelby Mustangs longer than they have been cloning BOSS Mustangs. 1965-1967 GT350 Shelby Mustangs started out life in the Ford San Jose Assembly Plant as K Code Mustangs with a normal Ford Mustang K Code VIN stamped in their Mustang bodies. These partially assembled (partially complete) Mustangs were sent to Shelby American where they were completed into Shelby Mustangs and they were legally assigned their Shelby VINs. Each Shelby Mustang was affixed with its own Shelby VIN Plate. Shelby American was a licensed vehicle manufacture. They were legally able to do this and Shelby American was the legal "Manufacturer of Origin" of these vehicles. The Shelby VIN plate was riveted on the driver’s side inner fender sheet metal over the top of the Ford Mustang body’s VIN. 

If one of these Shelby Mustangs were stolen and the Shelby VIN plate was removed the only Identification left on the vehicle is the original stamped-in-the-body Ford Mustang VIN. At this point someone could take this Shelby Mustang and they could get a title and ownership using the Ford Mustang VIN off the body. In law enforcement records the Shelby VIN would show-up as stolen, but the Ford Mustang VIN would have no record and the vehicle could get a title and then a license plate and be put back on the street. Though not totally legitimate, a stolen Shelby could legally end up back on the street. This could and has actually happened and the Shelby would continue on with its life with a Mustang VIN until someone got curious and unraveled the true history of the Shelby. 

This is similar to what a real thief would/could do with any early Mustang. Steal a Mustang. Obtain a different title and VIN plate off a junk or rusted-out Mustang. Using the junk Mustang VIN plate and title a stolen Mustang could be driven on the street. The thief might even sell the stolen Mustang to a new owner without the new owner suspecting this car was ever stolen. This stolen Mustang might go to its grave without anyone catching on to the VIN switch. Or this Mustang might go through a series of owners until one day the VIN switch gets discovered.

Let’s take another scenario. During the first ownership of a 1968 big-block Mustang the vehicle gets its original engine damaged/blown-up while drag racing. The Mustang gets dragged home and another engine and trans get put in and the Mustang goes out and gets raced and abused some more. A new drag race car comes along and the current racing engine comes out of the 1968 and goes into the new drag car. The ’68 is parked outside and the first owner harbors some intentions of fixing and/or replacing the original engine back into the 1968 someday, but this never happens. As years go by instead of getting an engine back in the 1968 Mustang slowly gets parted-out. Sometime later (maybe much, much later) someone gets the drivers side door (along with the metal VIN tag). From the VIN tag numbers someone later discovers this VIN plate and door actually reveals that this Mustang door came off 1968 1/2 428 Cobra Jet Mustang. The person that has possession of this door then takes the VIN number to his local Police Station and has the VIN run to see if it’s off a stolen car. The VIN checks-out clean. Maybe this current door owner takes it one step further and finds out from his local office of the DMV that this Mustang VIN is still open with legal title. Further info shows that the owner of record on the title has not had a current license plate on this Mustang in many years. Maybe with or without trying to contact the current title owner of record, the current door owner then takes this door and its VIN plate and starting with just these two items this person recreates this Cobra Jet Mustang. Nothing on this re-body is original except the driver’s side door and the VIN plate 

Next scenario. After parting-out this same 1968 Mustang body little is left over of it but just mainly the body shell. The tires, wheels, engine, trans, doors, hood, trunk lid, fenders, rear end, doors and most of the interior aren’t to be found and seem to be long gone. But this Mustang body still has its original inner fenders and the original Mustang VIN numbers are still stamped into them and very readable. Many of the more valuable bolt-on parts have been sold off and the person that gets this left-over body plans to cut off rear quarter panels to use them as patch panels to fix a different Mustang. But in order to get the quarter panels the interested person is told they must take the whole body. A deal is struck, but for whatever reason the new owner of this Mustang body shell doesn’t get the title with it from the original owner. That’s no big deal because this new owner of the body has no intentions to restore the Mustang or get it running and put it on the street again. Thinking ahead when this new owner will have to scrap the body they find out the junk yard won’t take it without its title. Later (maybe much, much later) someone come across this Mustang body and inquires about it. The current owner of the body tells the curious on-looker that “Yeah, I got that body from so and so the original owner. He was parting it out and I bought it from him. Old so and so told me he used to drag race it.” The curious on-looker asks if the current owner has the title to go along with this body and he says: “No, but I wish I did. I didn’t think to get it from him back at that time cause I didn’t have any plans to put it back on the street anyway. Why, you want to buy it?” From its drag racing days the roll cage is still in the car. The current owner of the body never did cut off the rear quarter panels. The curious on-looker thinks this body shell is in decent shape and it has the making of a cool drag race car and says: “Maybe, let me check into it and get back to you on it.” He does check into it and finds out from the VIN it’s a real big block Mustang and a true ex-drag car. The curious on-looker comes back, he strikes up a deal and buys this ex-drag racer body. Not having a title with the body is not an issue. The curious on-looker, now the new owner plans to drag race the car so “no title” is not an issue. Many old race cars today don’t have titles. Besides, if he really wants/needs to get a title for the car he still can apply for one since the body still carries its original stamped-in-the-body VIN numbers.

Third scenario. Years down the road old so and so dies and his kids have an estate sale. Buried back in the garage under a tarp is the remnants of a FE big block engine and its four-speed Top Loader trans.   The kids could care less about dad’s old car parts and its put up for sale as a part of the estate sale. Missing off the engine is the air cleaner assembly, carb, intake, distributor, and cast iron exhaust headers. There’s no shifter on the trans, but the bell housing and trans are still bolted-up to the engine.  To the average estate sale bargain hunter it just looks like an old used incomplete engine and trans. An interested visitor (and Ford enthusiast) visits the sale and spies the engine and trans. Seeing the chrome FE valve covers he suspects the engine might be something good. He notices the 428 CJ casting numbers on the heads and sees the partial stamped in VIN numbers on the engine block and transmission and they match. The Ford enthusiast’s eyes light-up and he’s real interested. He plans to buy it and the owner’s son happens to be at the estate sale. The Ford enthusiast asks the son if there are any other parts to go with this engine and trans and also inquires what the history is behind it. The son tells him his dad use to drag race Fords and this was one of the engines from one of his race cars. The son says his dad did pretty good in drag racing and was pretty well know. As far as he knew this engine had a spun bearing and his dad was going to rebuild it, but never got around to it. The Ford enthusiast asks what happen to the car this engine was in and the son says: “Oh that car sat out back for a long time and my dad just parted it out. I’m not sure, but I think it went to the junk yard and got crunched. There was nothing left but just a shell.” The Ford enthusiast says that’s too bad. I like old Ford drag racing cars, I’d like to have seen that car. The son say wait a minute since you’re interested in this engine, I might have something else you might be interested in. The son goes back to the house and then comes back with a few old pictures of his dad’s old 1968 Mustang race car. My dad always told me that this was the first engine that was in his ’68 and this is what it looked like. My dad had several different drag cars and I remember they were always switching engines and transmissions in his drag cars. It was something about how one could easily qualify in a different class by just switching between an automatic and a manual transmission. My dad worked at the local Ford dealership and they sponsored him to drag race. He always had easy access to parts and engines from Ford through the dealership. Although that Mustang got junked I still have the title to his old ’68 and here it is. The Ford enthusiast checks the VIN on the title and sure enough the VIN corresponds to the numbers stamped into the engine block and trans.The son says if you’re interested in this engine and trans you can have the pictures and title too. The Ford enthusiast strikes a deal and departs with engine, trans, title and pictures.

The Ford enthusiast fully decodes the VIN and it turns out to be a pretty rare 1968 1/2 428 CJ Mustang. The Ford enthusiast rebuilds the engine and the trans checks out OK so they get put in another similar 1968 Mustang (yes, a re-body). The Ford enthusiast gets the 1968 Mustang title put in his name and attaches/claims it against his newly created Mustang re-body. He justifies this claim because this re-body has the true title linage behind it as well the original engine and trans from the original car.

These 3 scenarios can all lay some claim to being that original 1968 1/2 428 CJ Mustang and any of them might be able to get a title with that VIN number on it. I suppose the first and third scenarios could be considered re-bodies and the second scenario being made from its original uni-body (but nothing else). Which scenario should be awarded this Mustangs VIN? They all three can’t own the same VIN.

What would happen if you had what you thought was an original and rare Mustang only to find out some other re-bodied Mustang already has your VIN? This issue could happen on a Uni-Body car. On a Body-On-Frame vehicle it is clear the original vehicle’s frame is what owns the right to the VIN and title.

If you own or are thinking of buying a re-bodied Mustang or Shelby Mustang you might have a can of worms you hope never gets opened.
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Offline crossboss

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Re: Article about John Craft's Holman & Moody NASCAR Galaxie
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2020, 08:21:41 am »
Lets be clear a 're-body' is referred to as altering/swapping a VIN number to one vehicle to another. Racers such as Holman & Moody, Bud Moore, Shelby Racing, NASCAR, etc were know to 're-skin' a body to meet current sanctioning body rules or to stay current. This is normal and is not based on a street car. Lastly, It doest matter weather the car in question is a full frame or a unibody…a 're-body' IS a re-body IF someone alters its VIN.
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1969 Mustang Fastback/FOX chassis, 5 speed, 4 wheel discs, with a modern Can-Am 494 (Boss 429), Kaase heads, intake mounted with a 1425 cfm 'B' Autolite Inline carb, ala Trans-Am style…Whew!